Episode 10: A Conversation with Artist Marius von Brasch

Welcome to The Gallery Date, a weekly date with Jenn Singer to chat about art and life and perhaps the art of life, all in bite sized, not-at-all fancy, but definitely savory episode nuggets. (Season 2 coming soon!)

This week, Jenn sits down with contemporary artist Marius von Brasch to discuss his current exhibition 'Black Sun, Braided Time' and to learn more about his life and work.

Enjoy the show? Please like, subscribe & share! And, stay tuned this summer for episodes of The Gallery Date.

You can email your questions for Jenn to gallerydate@jennsingergallery.com.

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This podcast is brought to you by Jenn Singer, founder of Jenn Singer Gallery.

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    Welcome to the gallery date.

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    I'm Jenn Singer, founder of Jenn Singer gallery.

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    Thanks for joining me for our weekly date to chat about art and life and

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    perhaps the art of life, all in bite sized, not at all fancy, but definitely

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    savory episode nuggets.

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    Let's mingle, my friends.

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    Don't forget to press record

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    Jenn. Well, hello, strangers.

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    I have to say, I've really missed our Gallery Dates.

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    So before season two starts production this summer, I thought we should catch

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    up and see how everyone's doing.

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    So what we've been up to is this month, on jennsingergallery.com, we launched

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    Black Sun Braided Time, a virtual exhibition of German British artist Marius

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    von Brash's oil paintings on linen and drawings on paper.

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    Marius's work is very complex.

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    It's as complex as it is beautiful.

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    His paintings and drawings are emotional, expressionist and full of movement

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    passion. The artist himself is kind, loving, gentle, and just one of the

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    most interesting people that I've had the pleasure of meeting and talking

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    with. It's one thing to see his work, but meeting Marius and learning about

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    him and his work is altogether different in the best possible way.

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    So that's why today I'm sitting down with him to interview him from his Isle

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    of Wight studio.

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    So first, before we get started with that, I'll just give you a little bit

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    of background on Marius.

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    He is a German British artist.

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    He received his Ma with distinction from Winchester School of Art,

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    University of Southampton, where he also completed his practice based PhD.

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    He was awarded the Abbey Fellowship in Painting at the British School in

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    Rome in 2013, and he has a background in psychotherapy and literature.

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    He teaches experiential approaches to painting as well as courses on art and

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    literature. His work is held in the Priseman Seabrook Collection, the

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    University of Essex modern and Contemporary British Art Collection and is

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    held in international private collections.

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    The artist is a member of contemporary British painting and lives and works

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    on the Isle of Wight in the United Kingdom.

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    So, without further ado, here we go.

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    Here's my interview with Marius.

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    I hope it gives you more insight to the artist himself and how and why he

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    creates his work.

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    And please visit jennsingergallery.com/blacksun to check out his current

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    exhibition. All right, here we go.

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    Here's my interview with Marius von Brasch.

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    Hi, Marius.

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    Welcome. It's so lovely to see you today.

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    How are you? Thank you so much for inviting me for this interview.

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    I'm fine.

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    I'm prepared for this here in my studio.

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    Good. Brilliant.

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    Well, it's nice to see a peek inside your Isle of Wight studio.

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    So why don't you start by giving us a little background information about

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    you as an artist...A bit more extensive background than being an artist.

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    I started out as a child to love music and learned the piano and was quite

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    obsessive with it, but had in mind to become a composer.

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    And I gave this idea up probably puberty because I thought, this is not what

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    I want to deliver.

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    Competition in the piano and so forth.

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    I started to discover literature at this point, and actual visual art

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    started with me really just beginning in my twenties.

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    And it was a quite spontaneous experience with being left alone with pastels

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    and big paper.

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    And then something took over somehow and it was actually, on some level

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    really quite life changing for me because after this experience I wanted to

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    have that again, that experience, this materiality of the pigments and so

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    forth, that I found fascinating.

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    And I wanted to go on with this.

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    So I learned for many years actually, through this intuitive process and in

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    parallel working with observational drawing to strengthen from that.

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    So the intuitive process got me working on what is called mark making.

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    But I find this is really very energetic and very nearly primal experience.

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    On some level.

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    The passion is more in working from something, I couldn't define what it

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    really is.

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    So I did a lot of research around, I mean, taking myself as a kind of guinea

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    pig to find out what is this when one paints from within and what is

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    happening there.

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    And I mean, I come from a family where psychoanalysis was quite on the

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    table, my father was an analyst.

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    These models of psychoanalysis have been for me not really always very

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    helpful. I found them, in the end, too restrictive.

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    But what I want to say is so I had a long phase of self taught in hindsight,

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    this long phase to deal with my own approach and with my own guidance from

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    something in me has helped me to find my language in a certain way.

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    So I did do my training then later, I mean, my formal training in terms of I

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    produced a book out of a series of monochromatic paintings which dealt with

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    this subject of Oedipus and it was a mixture of quite serious and quite ironic

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    images. And this book saved me having to go for a long BA.

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    So here in Britain, I went directly for the MA and I did this in order to

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    break my habits.

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    So I did what is possible here and written the practice based PhD.

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    That means half of my thesis is an exhibition and half is a theoretical

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    text, which I did with philosophical themes.

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    From then on, that was 2012, I did finish my PhD.

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    From then on I had become a committed eight hour artist in a way, and I have

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    in the meantime, I mean, I left this out, but it's important.

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    Through my own experiences, I went into a training as a gestalt therapist

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    and body therapist.

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    So I've been working in psychotherapy for 14 years and gave this up 2007 in

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    order to do only art.

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    So this is I did the psychotherapy in combination with offering workshops

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    for finding your own traces, finding your own way of I mean, basically to

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    share my experience.

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    I had but with people who were very insecure about their painting or felt

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    they wanted to explore something completely different or, like myself, break

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    through some molds of how to paint.

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    And so wanted to free this up a bit.

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    But of course, for me, who I am now as an artist is a mixture of all of

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    these things.

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    So the intuitive bit has always stayed with me, and this is how I approach

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    my work.

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    But the knowledge I have gained and the formal training, formal ideas that

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    are in my mind.

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    And so they played a role in the end to make it much more structured than

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    when I started.

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    So when you first started painting, it was actually large scale drawings on

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    paper that you worked on initially.

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    And what was that experience like? And you were quite young, you were in

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    your early 20s, is that right? I felt it was overwhelming.

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    This is why I wanted that again, because it was an experience of being

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    really myself.

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    Well, I just wanted to get an idea of I wanted to picture where this

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    happened in my head.

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    Can you paint the picture? Was this when you were living in Germany still?

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    Were you already in England? I lived with a girlfriend together in Frankfurt

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    and we had a very short relationship and lived together there.

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    And she was an art student and gave me this big sheet of this big paper.

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    Our circle said that we're all into art and music or writing or whatever,

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    and it was on a wooden floor.

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    She was very angry at me later because of all the pigments between the I

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    left a bad impression there.

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    It wasn't going to work out anyway, I think still to her, because that was a

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    very cathartic moment for me.

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    That was when I really felt I knew always I wanted to do art or music or so,

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    but this is where I felt I am now.

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    And this is a really big difference, isn't it? Before education or whatever,

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    there were there were quite a lot of obstacles in the way.

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    And of course, there are always obstacles to come to a flow of creativity

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    also phases when it doesn't work and come back and flow.

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    One needs to trust into, but I had enough time to learn that.

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    When you were painting or drawing, what was the evolution of the mediums

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    that you explored? I started actually mainly with drawing, but for me, these

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    divisions have been always a bit questionable because I think that some of

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    my drawings are paintings in my mind, although they are sparse.

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    And I started them with oil as well because I liked the smell and the kind

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    of substance of these colors to touch them and to work with my fingers on

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    the canvas and so on.

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    But I had to learn a lot.

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    In the beginning,

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    I slowly learned this oil painting, and later I did acrylics in between and

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    I got into oil painting because it gives me more time.

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    And I like slow art also to look at art slowly.

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    So for me, it's more suitable, it develops more organically.

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    I find with acrylic, when it dries very quickly, whereas color gives you

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    more time.

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    Yeah. And you've got a very academic style, almost to your paintings.

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    Not academic, but you give it time and space.

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    You can see that in your work.

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    All the details and stuff like that.

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    Yes, exactly.

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    These are formal concerns, I think, and also knowing more about what I

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    really enjoy doing.

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    So I have a real love for classical art.

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    I mean, and contemporary art, but it's more Renaissance Baroque and then

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    contemporary, what I really like.

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    And I go often to the National Gallery and just sit there and look.

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    And one of the painters I've learned most from is Pussain, Nicolas Pussain.

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    And it is about how do they structure a canvas? Because it's a space, it's a

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    window, it's a theater space, or whatever one wants to call it.

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    And how can I invite the viewer, get the viewer on a journey and enjoy the

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    journey myself? But it is something I want to communicate.

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    So it's not only I don't want to be, let's say, on stage on these paintings,

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    but I want these paintings to talk as if they don't know they're observed.

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    So they build their space themselves.

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    And they might look sometimes as if the curtain opens in the theater, but

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    none of the figures looks at you.

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    Really. Well, that brings me to another question that I wanted to ask you,

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    which was your partner, Mike.

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    When he sees your paintings, he says he can hear your paintings.

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    And I've had a similar reaction to your work, especially the piece in the

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    Black Sun exhibition that's behind you.

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    Pansy. We had a whole conversation when I first saw the work.

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    I felt like it was very musical, almost like operatic

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    music was my first love, somehow.

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    And I do I mean, you said the formal aspect, academic aspect.

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    Also, for me, I don't think myself it's academic.

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    It's more like built sometimes, I think, to string quartets often, and they

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    are built in movements, and each movement has got a certain mood and certain

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    development, and I like to have that.

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    My paintings have got a different quality to them, a different energy,

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    different color theme, and still in the same size.

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    So they work as a set of very well, I think.

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    Hang on.

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    But about the painting, about Pansy yes.

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    When I first saw it, I felt like it had a musical element to it, almost

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    operatic, or it's a very dramatic piece and it has a lot of movement, which

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    all of your work has a lot of energy and movement in it.

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    But I would love to hear you listen to music while you're painting.

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    No, I don't listen to them.

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    For me, they are very much about the flow.

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    I want to mediate, I mean, to show experience what I painted.

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    But it needs to be structured in the same time.

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    So for me, that's really important to have a counterweight of the smooth and

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    the striated, one could say the fluidity and the kind of segments that

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    separate things and make it possible to show different rooms.

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    I mean, this painting here, the Panzer painting was for me, a quite unusual

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    experience. The other one was, for me, very difficult to make.

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    The subject of this one here was how do I bring together Polarities? And

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    this is very simple in painting.

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    Cold colors, warm colors, light, darkness.

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    And it's an old subject that is used in alchemy.

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    So how do I bring fire and water together, for example? And as it is also

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    quality of feeling in myself and in other people.

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    So it's very much about the energies.

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    How do I bring together the watery energy with all its associations of

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    feeling and depression and excitement and so on.

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    And fire, which is drier and has the association of light and sometimes

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    anger and so on.

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    So I wanted to fuse them.

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    And it was very difficult because of the color scheme.

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    You're talking about echoing green specifically.

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    Yeah, because the other thing developed from that.

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    This is why I talk about it.

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    Okay. So pansy was development after or during the development of green,

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    both canvases.

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    This one was green prepared and the other one was pink.

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    So because in themselves there are Polarities already.

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    In the end.

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    How will they work together? I'm not sure whether they work actually so well

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    together, those two.

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    They're too different.

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    But okay.

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    So I had this one took me very long and the other one was very small, very

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    fast. And while painting, I suddenly realized this is what I paint there.

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    This is how I felt as a child.

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    Exactly. This is my world as a child, this painting.

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    And normally I don't like to be personal in my paintings.

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    Somehow I want always to go beyond my kind of 24/7 life and want to go

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    something into something deeper that I share with other people as well

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    because I think it has got something more to communicate.

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    But I felt I need also to be really clear about this.

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    This is the reason why I called it penancy because I was very sensitive as a

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    child and I had the experience that I was told everywhere that it's wrong

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    and that I'm not a real boy.

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    And then I was bullied for a while.

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    And this has deeply imprinted me.

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    I'm to be beaten up and not be able to fight back and not understanding.

    247

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    I didn't understand that.

    248

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    So I was quite dreamy child, very probably very imaginative.

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    I guess I was very perceptive for feelings, energies, I mean, basically very

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    open. And this experience of being bullied, I mean, of course, I was never

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    called a pansy because I grew up in the German language and was never said

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    like this.

    253

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    People were worried about me.

    254

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    They said, why don't you want to play with this? And why don't you want to

    255

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    play football and all of this stuff.

    256

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    And then being bullied by other boys and to suddenly feel I'm attracted by

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    other boys.

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    You say homosexual and gay and all these words, but they were very non.

    259

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    This was all very nonverbal, but all wrong.

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    Let's say this is probably one of the most important personal experiences I

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    had and that I bring into my work as well, to question, to pose questions

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    about what it means to be a man.

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    Calling this pansy self portrait as a child

    264

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    was a really good experience for me to have this as a last experience

    265

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    painting for this show as well, coming up.

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    And I thought, okay, so I will put this out there in the show and with this

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    title, because I know that in English it has a good, very strong

    268

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    connotation, which emotionally I don't really feel.

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    But I like flowers, I like Pansies.

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    So you're embracing it.

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    Being called gay and homosexual and all of this is fine.

    272

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    This has been part of my development to be uncomfortable with having to

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    compartmentalize myself, although my real life one partner for over 30

    274

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    years. So I've made my decisions, obviously, but I'm not sure whether this

    275

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    is really the best quality of our contemporary life that everybody has to

    276

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    compartmentalize him themselves to fight against the division that is going

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    on currently again, especially in the States.

    278

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    I think it's really frightening.

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    So one needs to make a stand, but it is a shame that one has to make stand

    280

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    at all.

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    I mean, I'm more than that and everyone who is more and we are all very

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    different. It's very different to have a kind of cohesive community that

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    says we are all Panzies and so on.

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    But I think also that a lot of men who are not living as a gay man have the

    285

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    experience of being bullied.

    286

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    I want to keep my work open for everyone who wants to step in.

    287

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    And I've put a few things from Alchemical old imagery and to contextualize it

    288

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    or however that came to my mind.

    289

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    It can you talk about that a bit, about how you incorporate alchemy into

    290

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    your work for a long time now, I think for twelve years or longer.

    291

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    Really fascinated by chemical imagery from Renaissance time.

    292

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    So they are painted around 1550, but it goes on then into early Baroque as

    293

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    well. It was a flourishing time for people who came up with alternative

    294

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    models to Christianity in the west.

    295

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    And it is actually really interesting stuff, these images.

    296

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    They play around with gender fluidity, with a man.

    297

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    In order to gain really, kingship, the position of being a believable king

    298

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    has to be when he's able to stand on the moon, which is of course a

    299

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    feminine, so called feminine symbol.

    300

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    And also for the woman, she has to stand on the sun.

    301

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    And in between is a hermaphrodytic face, an androgenous face where you have

    302

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    got one body with two genitals and two heads.

    303

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    It has been used in surrealism, of course, but for me, it is more about how

    304

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    to say, as humans, we live through imagination.

    305

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    We can model in our imagination all kind of stuff, and it's all real.

    306

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    And this is also how we construct our everyday life, through fantasies and

    307

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    helplessly beings that argue with each other, projecting onto each other.

    308

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    It's so much about imagination and all our attempts to have this really

    309

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    grounded into science and so on is all very fragile.

    310

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    So what I do is I take some of these images, scan them and dissect them into

    311

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    different fragments and so on, and change the color values and project them

    312

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    onto a new canvas.

    313

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    What I didn't want to do is to repeat alchemical images.

    314

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    I've a little bit repeated on this one here by quoting the snake thing, the

    315

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    so called war snake that bites in its own tail, I mean, basically a symbol

    316

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    of eternity.

    317

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    And that's an echoing green you're pointing to formation.

    318

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    So the alchemical images play for me a role of research because I find

    319

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    fascinating how they did it and in the same time also to just chop them up

    320

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    and be irreverent with them and use them knowing what these guys, how

    321

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    beautiful. I mean, this is not being nasty to these images.

    322

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    It's more using their potential and knowing that I'm connecting with them.

    323

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    But I need to do it in a contemporary way.

    324

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    So I want to find new ways of speaking about this clash of my everyday mind,

    325

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    my rationality, my reason with these subconscious or what we call

    326

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    subterranean forces.

    327

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    Black sun, for example.

    328

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    Is it okay when I go into this briefly? Because it's yes, please.

    329

    00:25:34,364 --> 00:25:39,642

    I would love to talk about black sun is one of your large scale paintings on

    330

    00:25:39,696 --> 00:25:47,386

    canvas or on linen in the show and part of the title, an inspiration for the

    331

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    title. So Black Sun is when I say the clash between reason and those

    332

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    elements in us, we can't harness, I mean, imagination and all the images we

    333

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    have about this.

    334

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    It's subterranean, it's hell, it's kind of deep cellars and so forth.

    335

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    This is, in mythology, often used for descent into the underworld.

    336

    00:26:12,790 --> 00:26:20,118

    And one of the earliest things we know is one of the most prominent one is

    337

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    the story of Osiris, the god, I mean, the god of the farmhouse, but also the

    338

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    god of vegetation.

    339

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    So he has to go into the underworld for 12 hours and has to get on his dark

    340

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    boat, protected, but also challenged in the darkness in order to come out

    341

    00:26:41,636 --> 00:26:44,190

    and be received by the goddess of dawn,

    342

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    which is associated in ancient history with Venus.

    343

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    So he is greeted by the goddess of dawn into the new day.

    344

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    So I mean, this is the earliest form of the descent into the underworld in

    345

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    order to come up with something new and something that in his power position

    346

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    there as something meaningful.

    347

    00:27:14,338 --> 00:27:19,514

    But you have the same for Persiphone, for the feminine role, and the same

    348

    00:27:19,552 --> 00:27:20,166

    for Psyche.

    349

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    They need to go into the darkness in order to mature or to come up with

    350

    00:27:27,230 --> 00:27:28,378

    something important.

    351

    00:27:28,544 --> 00:27:33,482

    Then we have got obvious, of course, as an role model for the artist.

    352

    00:27:33,546 --> 00:27:39,838

    Sightwombly has done a lot about obvious and in connection with the poems of

    353

    00:27:39,924 --> 00:27:48,770

    Reka. And I found that in Alchemy, it's the image of the black sun.

    354

    00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,054

    So the sun goes down into the earth.

    355

    00:27:51,102 --> 00:27:57,394

    It's a very primitive interpretation of this, but it's it's maybe not

    356

    00:27:57,432 --> 00:27:59,694

    primitive. It's it's just very literal.

    357

    00:27:59,822 --> 00:28:06,166

    One can imagine it when you don't know how the earth is shaped and so on.

    358

    00:28:06,188 --> 00:28:11,254

    And I like the kind of poetry of it, the sun blackens.

    359

    00:28:11,382 --> 00:28:20,490

    And this is in Ikea image of being in contact with really inferior elements

    360

    00:28:20,570 --> 00:28:26,714

    in oneself that are like mud, like depression, like really difficult dark

    361

    00:28:26,762 --> 00:28:32,766

    stuff, or grief, for example, as well.

    362

    00:28:32,868 --> 00:28:38,718

    And to know, because this is the alchemist knowledge that in the darkness

    363

    00:28:38,814 --> 00:28:44,194

    there is that spark that will illuminate the sun in the end.

    364

    00:28:44,232 --> 00:28:47,222

    But it needs to go through this purification process, through these

    365

    00:28:47,276 --> 00:28:53,062

    processes again and again and again, till it comes to a point where a kind

    366

    00:28:53,116 --> 00:28:55,874

    of new life force is regained.

    367

    00:28:55,922 --> 00:28:58,938

    In Alchemy, this is then the red sun in the end.

    368

    00:28:59,104 --> 00:29:06,390

    So in this black sun, this was my way of being almost natural.

    369

    00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:12,320

    But I had to do this because I thought the last winter had such a really

    370

    00:29:12,690 --> 00:29:16,462

    heavy atmosphere around for lots of people.

    371

    00:29:16,516 --> 00:29:16,894

    I know.

    372

    00:29:16,932 --> 00:29:18,190

    I mean, including yourself.

    373

    00:29:18,340 --> 00:29:19,150

    Yes, I know.

    374

    00:29:19,220 --> 00:29:23,154

    I think it was a rough winter for a lot of us, and I don't know what it was

    375

    00:29:23,192 --> 00:29:29,122

    about this particular winter, but I know everybody, so many people

    376

    00:29:29,176 --> 00:29:31,326

    struggled, and I think we've all struggled.

    377

    00:29:31,358 --> 00:29:37,558

    In the past three years, there's been a lot of darkness that we've had to

    378

    00:29:37,564 --> 00:29:38,294

    come through.

    379

    00:29:38,412 --> 00:29:44,854

    Yeah. Lockdown and also, what's politically going on does sometimes make me

    380

    00:29:44,892 --> 00:29:50,250

    very sad and I think, actually it makes me angry.

    381

    00:29:53,870 --> 00:29:56,506

    This is how the black sun came to pass.

    382

    00:29:56,608 --> 00:30:01,834

    And I thought, I need to be maybe quite literal here to have this circle.

    383

    00:30:01,962 --> 00:30:08,638

    I mean, to have this circle on my painting, which I have then continued in

    384

    00:30:08,644 --> 00:30:09,502

    the echoing green.

    385

    00:30:09,556 --> 00:30:13,586

    There's a circle in there, just this new thing, the green, and it's in the

    386

    00:30:13,608 --> 00:30:15,070

    same side of the canvas.

    387

    00:30:15,150 --> 00:30:17,010

    And it is a bit of an echo.

    388

    00:30:17,670 --> 00:30:25,134

    It plays with being on another level because I wanted to, again with this

    389

    00:30:25,192 --> 00:30:32,674

    painting, it's important to keep the dark side in the new as well, alive,

    390

    00:30:32,802 --> 00:30:34,086

    like in the black sun.

    391

    00:30:34,188 --> 00:30:39,482

    There's also something going on on the other side with light and with some

    392

    00:30:39,536 --> 00:30:40,860

    energy, with this fire.

    393

    00:30:43,790 --> 00:30:48,906

    I want to have this life energy always present somehow, wherever it is, I

    394

    00:30:48,928 --> 00:30:50,398

    think it really comes through in your work.

    395

    00:30:50,484 --> 00:30:55,738

    There's always that spark that you see kind of blazing through, whether it's

    396

    00:30:55,754 --> 00:30:58,800

    in the background or kind of just a spark through.

    397

    00:31:00,130 --> 00:31:04,674

    If it's a darker piece, it's a spark of light that comes through.

    398

    00:31:04,872 --> 00:31:10,626

    I mean, I don't want to be too because it might sound sentimental also, but

    399

    00:31:10,648 --> 00:31:16,742

    I mean it really I think that there is a lot of very difficult stuff going

    400

    00:31:16,796 --> 00:31:18,726

    on for a lot of people.

    401

    00:31:18,908 --> 00:31:24,726

    But I find it also important to keep somehow to meditate somehow I mean, to

    402

    00:31:24,748 --> 00:31:28,822

    have something positive around and something transformative.

    403

    00:31:28,966 --> 00:31:30,394

    I believe that.

    404

    00:31:30,592 --> 00:31:38,214

    I feel it's not believing, it's knowing that in these transformative phases

    405

    00:31:38,342 --> 00:31:44,462

    like alchemists, they talk about transformation basically from dark through

    406

    00:31:44,516 --> 00:31:46,302

    process into something else.

    407

    00:31:46,436 --> 00:31:51,310

    And it's not that it remains then, oh, fantastic hippie, everything is fine,

    408

    00:31:51,380 --> 00:31:55,882

    it's just in a continuous movement of becoming result.

    409

    00:31:55,946 --> 00:32:04,466

    Right. So coming as this kind of intertwined polarity idea ying yang or whatever one

    410

    00:32:04,488 --> 00:32:10,760

    wants to call it so this would be in a nutshell, I think, yeah.

    411

    00:32:12,890 --> 00:32:20,842

    I want to hear a bit more about how well, there are two things how your work

    412

    00:32:20,896 --> 00:32:26,042

    has changed and evolved since that very beginning in your early twenty s.

    413

    00:32:26,176 --> 00:32:34,350

    And what do you think the most significant marker was for you or milestone

    414

    00:32:34,930 --> 00:32:42,766

    was for you and that change or difference in your work? And then also how do

    415

    00:32:42,788 --> 00:32:47,346

    you think it's changed since the last three years as we've gone through this

    416

    00:32:47,368 --> 00:32:54,274

    pandemic? And how that's worked for you changed your work due to my age.

    417

    00:32:54,312 --> 00:32:56,360

    This is a long thing, so I'll make it short.

    418

    00:32:57,770 --> 00:32:58,758

    You're very young.

    419

    00:32:58,844 --> 00:32:59,720

    Very young.

    420

    00:33:00,330 --> 00:33:05,270

    So it started clumsy.

    421

    00:33:06,410 --> 00:33:07,942

    Clumsy but true.

    422

    00:33:07,996 --> 00:33:09,626

    Somehow it felt for me too.

    423

    00:33:09,648 --> 00:33:11,146

    I didn't show people.

    424

    00:33:11,328 --> 00:33:13,482

    I started to show them at a later point.

    425

    00:33:13,536 --> 00:33:20,714

    And I had my sister in law with an artist who was somehow really like my

    426

    00:33:20,752 --> 00:33:24,718

    mentor. And she believed always in me, she had always a feeling I have to

    427

    00:33:24,724 --> 00:33:25,518

    say something.

    428

    00:33:25,684 --> 00:33:31,054

    So when I was at my worst and showed her and thought this is all really

    429

    00:33:31,092 --> 00:33:37,634

    horrible and unskillful and so and she said you have got something there,

    430

    00:33:37,672 --> 00:33:40,962

    you just go on, do it, do it, do it.

    431

    00:33:41,016 --> 00:33:42,066

    Which I did.

    432

    00:33:42,248 --> 00:33:49,086

    So I developed this kind of what is kind of maybe called surreal language,

    433

    00:33:49,118 --> 00:33:52,130

    but it has I've never identified with surrealism.

    434

    00:33:52,210 --> 00:34:00,282

    For me, surrealism is too precious on some level and too much engaged with

    435

    00:34:00,336 --> 00:34:02,070

    having women as their muses.

    436

    00:34:02,150 --> 00:34:05,820

    And I find they functionalize, the feminine and women.

    437

    00:34:06,590 --> 00:34:11,290

    And it's for me too dogmatic.

    438

    00:34:11,950 --> 00:34:13,966

    So I was called.

    439

    00:34:13,988 --> 00:34:16,000

    Are you Surrealistic? And I said, well,

    440

    00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:29,860

    at that point I liked artists like Max Beckman and John Dubuffy and

    441

    00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:39,826

    Antonin ATO, where there was something quite primal and quite distressed in

    442

    00:34:39,848 --> 00:34:41,060

    their work as well.

    443

    00:34:42,150 --> 00:34:44,178

    Beckman, of course, is highly developed.

    444

    00:34:44,274 --> 00:34:46,806

    His mythological paintings are really amazing.

    445

    00:34:46,988 --> 00:34:53,290

    I find him still his last works, these triptychs are just really wonderful.

    446

    00:34:55,310 --> 00:35:03,454

    So I developed a certain I think I was okay with myself, so after maybe ten

    447

    00:35:03,492 --> 00:35:08,158

    years, I could formulate more what I had in mind.

    448

    00:35:08,244 --> 00:35:13,966

    But the real important point was the decision to do my ma and to have a

    449

    00:35:13,988 --> 00:35:16,330

    fantastic supervisor best Holland.

    450

    00:35:16,490 --> 00:35:22,062

    And I said to her, I come here in order to break my habits as a painter.

    451

    00:35:22,126 --> 00:35:22,962

    And she said, Great.

    452

    00:35:23,016 --> 00:35:25,586

    This is exactly what we want to do with you.

    453

    00:35:25,768 --> 00:35:32,710

    And can you find something or paintings where you reflect, where you can see

    454

    00:35:32,860 --> 00:35:37,358

    the reflection of your own work? And then I found the alchemical pictures.

    455

    00:35:37,554 --> 00:35:40,442

    Okay. So this is how I got there.

    456

    00:35:40,496 --> 00:35:48,300

    And I started, first of all, to make photocopies of some really big ones and

    457

    00:35:48,750 --> 00:35:52,750

    cut them apart and make colors, which are actually quite nice.

    458

    00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:57,200

    But then I digitized the whole process.

    459

    00:36:01,570 --> 00:36:08,738

    How did you do that, then? Yeah, to scan an image and to go in Photoshop and

    460

    00:36:08,744 --> 00:36:14,114

    to cut it into segments, change colors, make a collage out of them, and use

    461

    00:36:14,152 --> 00:36:16,690

    the collage as a springboard for protection.

    462

    00:36:16,850 --> 00:36:17,750

    Got it.

    463

    00:36:17,900 --> 00:36:22,902

    Yeah. And elements of this I still use.

    464

    00:36:22,956 --> 00:36:24,310

    I mean, elements of this process.

    465

    00:36:24,380 --> 00:36:31,286

    But I got into this very easily as soon as I found these images.

    466

    00:36:31,318 --> 00:36:36,170

    I thought these guys had the same in mind, but they did it very differently.

    467

    00:36:38,430 --> 00:36:43,422

    I can see that colleagues work with alchemy, other painters, sometimes very

    468

    00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:45,070

    literal, by quoting

    469

    00:36:48,210 --> 00:36:56,734

    this is somehow the breaking point was for me, my allowing to contextualize

    470

    00:36:56,782 --> 00:36:57,860

    my work more.

    471

    00:36:59,430 --> 00:37:05,042

    Okay. Regarding the last three years.

    472

    00:37:05,176 --> 00:37:06,642

    Yeah, it did initially.

    473

    00:37:06,706 --> 00:37:09,734

    And maybe it's uncomfortable to hear this, but for me, it was really

    474

    00:37:09,772 --> 00:37:13,954

    important to be forced to be really silent.

    475

    00:37:14,082 --> 00:37:15,880

    And I really enjoyed that.

    476

    00:37:18,110 --> 00:37:20,220

    I've heard that from a lot of people, actually.

    477

    00:37:20,910 --> 00:37:25,180

    I felt good about the silence of it.

    478

    00:37:27,630 --> 00:37:34,910

    I made one painting that I think you have got in the gallery as well, called

    479

    00:37:34,980 --> 00:37:45,490

    One Day, One Night, One Evening, something like it was the feeling of having

    480

    00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,890

    a greater contact to a bigger picture through COVID.

    481

    00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:52,706

    Not only this, quiet.

    482

    00:37:52,808 --> 00:37:58,418

    I mean, I had to do a lot before, constantly, and with shows and things I

    483

    00:37:58,424 --> 00:38:00,070

    had to do and deadlines and so on.

    484

    00:38:00,140 --> 00:38:05,462

    And I was really glad that this had all gone and that at last time to go

    485

    00:38:05,516 --> 00:38:08,140

    deeper into the subject that really interests me.

    486

    00:38:09,390 --> 00:38:13,850

    And then we had our contact as well.

    487

    00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:21,420

    And this gives me also more space to say, okay, just do it.

    488

    00:38:24,290 --> 00:38:27,694

    It is a corporation like this that is very helpful for me.

    489

    00:38:27,892 --> 00:38:36,894

    So Lockdown was, for me, a good reminder of something.

    490

    00:38:37,012 --> 00:38:42,510

    And I think for me, as an artist, I need a lot of introversion and silence.

    491

    00:38:43,810 --> 00:38:51,474

    This research, elements, and thinking about stuff, feeling into it, this unit

    492

    00:38:51,522 --> 00:38:56,358

    of thinking, feeling and intuition, this, I think, is very important.

    493

    00:38:56,444 --> 00:38:59,642

    And the material bit come, I mean, there's four elements, if you like.

    494

    00:38:59,696 --> 00:39:01,658

    Yeah, they come together like that.

    495

    00:39:01,824 --> 00:39:07,642

    It sounds like the painting process for you is so like it's almost

    496

    00:39:07,696 --> 00:39:16,910

    meditative. And it sounds like it's very cathartic when you finish a work.

    497

    00:39:16,980 --> 00:39:18,080

    Is it just like ah, done.

    498

    00:39:22,130 --> 00:39:29,826

    I know probably when one works out as well, there is a kind of effect of

    499

    00:39:29,928 --> 00:39:34,706

    happiness. And when I have finished the work and sometimes difficult to know

    500

    00:39:34,728 --> 00:39:41,590

    when, let's say the signpost or the pointer for me is this feeling of

    501

    00:39:41,740 --> 00:39:49,558

    there's something I feel that feels right, so I don't try too much.

    502

    00:39:49,724 --> 00:39:52,540

    But that comes always with formal aspects as well.

    503

    00:39:53,390 --> 00:39:56,810

    There is some balance not achieved or something like that.

    504

    00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,690

    But yeah, it can be cathartic when I recognize what it's about.

    505

    00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,160

    Because in the beginning I never know what it's about.

    506

    00:40:04,690 --> 00:40:07,598

    And even when I plan something, it's different.

    507

    00:40:07,764 --> 00:40:11,534

    So it comes up as you're working? Yeah, it comes up when I work.

    508

    00:40:11,572 --> 00:40:16,002

    And this is pansy subject was for me very interesting because I thought,

    509

    00:40:16,136 --> 00:40:21,342

    okay, something in me wants that to be on the canvas and to be communicated

    510

    00:40:21,406 --> 00:40:22,340

    to the outside.

    511

    00:40:22,790 --> 00:40:26,686

    And then I thought, Can I do this? Is this too personal or not? And I said

    512

    00:40:26,728 --> 00:40:31,240

    no. It's actually films of many people to be a successive child.

    513

    00:40:31,770 --> 00:40:35,942

    I think we connect most with the paintings that came from the most

    514

    00:40:35,996 --> 00:40:43,702

    vulnerable places in the artist or the dancers or the musicians or any

    515

    00:40:43,756 --> 00:40:45,960

    creative making work.

    516

    00:40:46,810 --> 00:40:52,826

    That place of vulnerability really create them this much more approachable

    517

    00:40:52,938 --> 00:40:53,840

    end result.

    518

    00:40:54,930 --> 00:40:59,374

    Yes. And I hope that in my work that comes across anyway, whether I say

    519

    00:40:59,412 --> 00:41:01,040

    something about it or not.

    520

    00:41:02,950 --> 00:41:09,202

    Because I think in my drawings, for example, I really think I cultivate that

    521

    00:41:09,256 --> 00:41:10,660

    to go very much.

    522

    00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:18,102

    These color pencils, they have such a wonderful how to say they yield to

    523

    00:41:18,156 --> 00:41:19,000

    really energy.

    524

    00:41:19,850 --> 00:41:21,190

    They emphasize

    525

    00:41:24,250 --> 00:41:25,494

    what I want them to do.

    526

    00:41:25,532 --> 00:41:27,000

    They are wonderful with that.

    527

    00:41:28,570 --> 00:41:35,222

    So to follow really a line and let this life of this line being be there and

    528

    00:41:35,356 --> 00:41:37,320

    leave it there like it is.

    529

    00:41:37,850 --> 00:41:42,830

    I think it's also something Trumbly Sad, who I by the way, admire greatly.

    530

    00:41:43,890 --> 00:41:48,878

    That a line that to do the line for its own life.

    531

    00:41:48,964 --> 00:41:54,106

    Something like this in the line, especially in drawing.

    532

    00:41:54,138 --> 00:41:59,794

    I think this is a different a little bit of a different medium for me than

    533

    00:41:59,832 --> 00:42:03,090

    painting. So therefore my drawing look different.

    534

    00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:04,530

    There's more emptiness.

    535

    00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:11,270

    Line has much more presence than in painting.

    536

    00:42:13,610 --> 00:42:17,286

    There's a lot more space, a lot more breathing room in your drawings on

    537

    00:42:17,308 --> 00:42:22,380

    paper. I love the emptiness of the paper often.

    538

    00:42:23,630 --> 00:42:30,114

    And then there's a frenetic energy in some of the drawing and painting

    539

    00:42:30,182 --> 00:42:31,886

    pieces works.

    540

    00:42:32,068 --> 00:42:35,280

    And I think that is the energy.

    541

    00:42:37,410 --> 00:42:40,974

    It's so interesting, the drawings versus the paintings, because they both

    542

    00:42:41,012 --> 00:42:45,860

    have energy and moving qualities to them.

    543

    00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:54,642

    But there's that special quality of that white space surrounding the works

    544

    00:42:54,696 --> 00:43:01,078

    on paper where you just give us the space to enjoy the quick burst of energy

    545

    00:43:01,164 --> 00:43:02,040

    that happens.

    546

    00:43:02,970 --> 00:43:04,520

    I think it's really special.

    547

    00:43:04,970 --> 00:43:05,718

    Thank you.

    548

    00:43:05,804 --> 00:43:14,394

    I feel that looking at Asian art, classical art, has had an influence on

    549

    00:43:14,432 --> 00:43:22,246

    that, but also the so called informal it's called informal.

    550

    00:43:22,278 --> 00:43:26,480

    It's art movement in the 1980s.

    551

    00:43:26,850 --> 00:43:31,854

    And my sister in law, she made drawings that were I mean, they're very

    552

    00:43:31,892 --> 00:43:34,430

    different, but they leave this space.

    553

    00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:40,866

    And I went to a show about American drawings that was in Frankfurt in the

    554

    00:43:40,968 --> 00:43:45,890

    early 1980s when I was just really into becoming an artist.

    555

    00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:52,440

    And I loved these works because there was so much about empty space,

    556

    00:43:53,050 --> 00:43:55,080

    especially sworny stuff, again,

    557

    00:43:58,090 --> 00:44:06,186

    and also about, in classical drawing, the fine pressure that is used for

    558

    00:44:06,208 --> 00:44:13,662

    charcoal or for Sungreen, especially the the reddish drawings that people

    559

    00:44:13,716 --> 00:44:18,522

    like Vatu and also Boucher.

    560

    00:44:18,586 --> 00:44:22,362

    I mean, he's despised for his paintings, but look at these wonderful

    561

    00:44:22,426 --> 00:44:23,230

    drawings.

    562

    00:44:27,910 --> 00:44:34,370

    I want to go back to how your works can sometimes initially appear abstract

    563

    00:44:35,190 --> 00:44:40,214

    and then all of a sudden you take a closer look and there are these little

    564

    00:44:40,252 --> 00:44:45,606

    figures and these little marks that you've made and structures kind of

    565

    00:44:45,628 --> 00:44:47,830

    emerging buildings.

    566

    00:44:49,950 --> 00:44:56,346

    Could you discuss the process of creating these hidden elements of your

    567

    00:44:56,368 --> 00:45:03,546

    work? I mean, it sounds like the cutouts from the alchemy alchemical pieces

    568

    00:45:03,578 --> 00:45:06,974

    that you're building into the work might be part of it that you already

    569

    00:45:07,012 --> 00:45:13,154

    described. But no, it's it's it's I think it comes from what I was talking

    570

    00:45:13,192 --> 00:45:18,340

    about earlier, about I loved to hide stuff as a child

    571

    00:45:23,510 --> 00:45:25,118

    and to find things.

    572

    00:45:25,304 --> 00:45:34,006

    So I was always somehow in a garden looking for things in the earth or in a

    573

    00:45:34,028 --> 00:45:35,526

    shrub and things like this.

    574

    00:45:35,628 --> 00:45:40,250

    And I hoped always to find something beautiful or something of interest,

    575

    00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:41,900

    which I would collect them.

    576

    00:45:42,350 --> 00:45:52,026

    And on another level, it's a kind of obstinacy on my part that I don't

    577

    00:45:52,058 --> 00:45:54,890

    believe in the division between abstract and figurative.

    578

    00:45:54,970 --> 00:46:00,910

    I find this silly, to be honest, but okay, this is just my opinion.

    579

    00:46:03,910 --> 00:46:11,374

    Here in England, it was very formative to people to say, I'm going abstract.

    580

    00:46:11,422 --> 00:46:16,406

    And I thought, why should I have to go abstract if I don't want that? And I

    581

    00:46:16,428 --> 00:46:19,398

    like to play with both.

    582

    00:46:19,484 --> 00:46:25,906

    I like to surprise myself when I paint it and not to be bored.

    583

    00:46:25,938 --> 00:46:28,380

    I love paintings where I can discover things.

    584

    00:46:32,030 --> 00:46:36,874

    Somebody has taken the time to put a little detail in that can be

    585

    00:46:36,912 --> 00:46:41,514

    discovered. I mean, somebody like John Martin, the Scottish painter who did

    586

    00:46:41,552 --> 00:46:45,994

    this apocalyptic landscape, which I have just seen when I was in Newcastle.

    587

    00:46:46,042 --> 00:46:51,600

    Actually, it was really good because I know them from reproductions, but

    588

    00:46:54,930 --> 00:46:57,438

    they are, of course, really over the top and so on.

    589

    00:46:57,444 --> 00:47:02,442

    But they have got in these really big, tiny elements, little horses,

    590

    00:47:02,506 --> 00:47:04,640

    people doing this, people doing that.

    591

    00:47:05,050 --> 00:47:07,270

    Also buildings falling apart.

    592

    00:47:07,850 --> 00:47:10,518

    I felt somebody had that done before.

    593

    00:47:10,604 --> 00:47:13,670

    I feel that these things falling apart.

    594

    00:47:14,170 --> 00:47:17,800

    This is when certain concepts in life that don't work out.

    595

    00:47:18,350 --> 00:47:21,434

    And I think this is currently happening for a lot of people.

    596

    00:47:21,472 --> 00:47:29,642

    It's like when dreams break in the same time that something else rises out,

    597

    00:47:29,776 --> 00:47:30,880

    something new.

    598

    00:47:33,330 --> 00:47:38,238

    And the concept of it has to break sometimes for that new thing to come out

    599

    00:47:38,244 --> 00:47:45,646

    of, like the Phoenix Rising. Yeah I was running this Workshop and this subject, the phoenix came up

    600

    00:47:45,668 --> 00:47:47,578

    because in that room was a big phoenix.

    601

    00:47:47,674 --> 00:47:52,286

    Yes. And maybe I'd briefly say this now again, because I think it's

    602

    00:47:52,318 --> 00:47:57,746

    important also with the dawn and so on, I think it's really important to see

    603

    00:47:57,768 --> 00:48:01,814

    the difference between that approach, which comes very much from a

    604

    00:48:01,852 --> 00:48:07,814

    consciousness of experience of working with minor things, not with major

    605

    00:48:07,932 --> 00:48:10,258

    concepts and some, but with small things.

    606

    00:48:10,364 --> 00:48:17,354

    Because in political movements, the dawn and breaking the Phoenix Rising is

    607

    00:48:17,392 --> 00:48:23,902

    often coming from the right, I.

    608

    00:48:23,956 --> 00:48:29,614

    E. To break society down and then nationalism comes through and purity comes

    609

    00:48:29,652 --> 00:48:34,354

    through and supremacy of race comes through and so on.

    610

    00:48:34,472 --> 00:48:38,034

    This is nothing to do on any level.

    611

    00:48:38,152 --> 00:48:39,602

    This is what I'm talking about.

    612

    00:48:39,656 --> 00:48:45,010

    This is not about purification process, it's about being conscious about

    613

    00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,946

    this intertwining of the difficulty.

    614

    00:48:48,978 --> 00:48:53,174

    I mean, this rubbing, this frictionless is everywhere going on and it has

    615

    00:48:53,212 --> 00:48:55,894

    its own beauty, but it's a problem.

    616

    00:48:56,092 --> 00:48:57,414

    No, I'm glad you said that.

    617

    00:48:57,452 --> 00:49:04,586

    And I think it's important to especially these days with such resurgence of

    618

    00:49:04,608 --> 00:49:06,060

    the extreme right.

    619

    00:49:06,430 --> 00:49:10,460

    I think it's really important to clarify these things.

    620

    00:49:13,970 --> 00:49:19,886

    The extremists always bastardize these concepts, don't they? So yeah, I

    621

    00:49:19,908 --> 00:49:23,902

    mean, therefore, I mean, these are the purity and stuff like this, these are

    622

    00:49:23,956 --> 00:49:29,890

    concepts that are that are completely imbalanced and false and inhuman.

    623

    00:49:32,230 --> 00:49:38,774

    But the awareness I think what I try to do with these ideas because these

    624

    00:49:38,892 --> 00:49:44,290

    ideas that I find there are visual ideas as well, that I've seen discovered,

    625

    00:49:44,370 --> 00:49:46,310

    like many others as well.

    626

    00:49:46,460 --> 00:49:52,586

    But they have got a potential that one can use for something that is in

    627

    00:49:52,608 --> 00:49:57,034

    reality about being human on a very basic level.

    628

    00:49:57,152 --> 00:50:07,006

    To have to fight with grief, with death, to embrace love all of these things

    629

    00:50:07,108 --> 00:50:13,310

    that I try in reality to work about, these are the subjects I'm I'm thinking

    630

    00:50:13,380 --> 00:50:14,960

    about. Very, very simple.

    631

    00:50:15,410 --> 00:50:21,860

    Yeah. The simplest are sometimes the most complex, aren't they? Yeah.

    632

    00:50:25,210 --> 00:50:28,262

    And every generation does it in a different way.

    633

    00:50:28,396 --> 00:50:30,440

    Yeah, exactly.

    634

    00:50:32,650 --> 00:50:36,200

    So I have some more questions.

    635

    00:50:37,050 --> 00:50:43,130

    Where should I go next?

    636

    00:50:44,510 --> 00:50:45,900

    Here's a fun one.

    637

    00:50:46,910 --> 00:50:51,406

    If you could have any superpower as an artist, what would it be and how

    638

    00:50:51,428 --> 00:50:58,400

    would it affect your artwork? I would paint much bigger size,

    639

    00:51:01,570 --> 00:51:07,426

    really long arms to extend my body.

    640

    00:51:07,528 --> 00:51:15,814

    I mean, to make it longer arms, longer body, all in all, and have really big

    641

    00:51:15,852 --> 00:51:21,110

    brushes that can also shrink and get very fine for details.

    642

    00:51:22,490 --> 00:51:23,800

    That would be a good one.

    643

    00:51:25,210 --> 00:51:27,438

    I would go for really big paintings.

    644

    00:51:27,554 --> 00:51:34,426

    Yeah. So that would require like superhuman extensions on the arm because I

    645

    00:51:34,448 --> 00:51:40,742

    have to be on the letter and I find from somewhere from 180 or 2 meters

    646

    00:51:40,806 --> 00:51:43,886

    onwards, which is summer, six foot, seven foot.

    647

    00:51:43,988 --> 00:51:49,790

    It gets a bit awkward and I have to go to the chiropractor.

    648

    00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:57,140

    Yeah, okay, well, that's a fun one.

    649

    00:52:02,470 --> 00:52:06,306

    I think a lot of artists especially would be interested in hearing how you

    650

    00:52:06,328 --> 00:52:12,294

    made the transition and how you bit the bullet and said I'm a full time

    651

    00:52:12,332 --> 00:52:16,600

    artist, this is my job, this is how I make money, this is the work I do.

    652

    00:52:17,710 --> 00:52:22,810

    And yes, there will be things here and there that supplement that work.

    653

    00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:29,066

    But how I think that artists especially would be interested in hearing about

    654

    00:52:29,088 --> 00:52:36,160

    that. I worked as a psychotherapist, as I said, and run workshops that would

    655

    00:52:36,690 --> 00:52:44,834

    focus on a kind of combination of psychological elements and painting from

    656

    00:52:44,872 --> 00:52:49,140

    within. I e the body mind.

    657

    00:52:49,510 --> 00:52:54,820

    So what I decided I had the feeling that I came to the end of my shelf life

    658

    00:52:55,850 --> 00:52:56,854

    after 14 years.

    659

    00:52:56,892 --> 00:53:00,440

    I thought I need to have done that.

    660

    00:53:00,970 --> 00:53:04,840

    It doesn't feel genuine anymore, so I need to really let go.

    661

    00:53:05,370 --> 00:53:10,154

    And I prepared my clients early enough.

    662

    00:53:10,352 --> 00:53:14,826

    It was really important to give everyone a kind of deadline and say this is

    663

    00:53:14,928 --> 00:53:16,474

    when I will stop.

    664

    00:53:16,672 --> 00:53:23,614

    And with my partner together and with another income I have, that was

    665

    00:53:23,652 --> 00:53:32,754

    possible. But of course it got me in a I mean, I did instant stopped working

    666

    00:53:32,792 --> 00:53:36,100

    as a psychotherapist and did my academic training.

    667

    00:53:36,470 --> 00:53:40,100

    So for three all in all, four years

    668

    00:53:46,710 --> 00:53:51,640

    and afterwards it was very much to get myself out there.

    669

    00:53:52,330 --> 00:53:59,994

    I got this Abbey Fellowship award which is a very good award which came with

    670

    00:54:00,032 --> 00:54:05,418

    three months in Rome at the British School at Rome where I could develop my

    671

    00:54:05,504 --> 00:54:13,594

    drawings. And I thought after this I bet you doors open for me, which they

    672

    00:54:13,632 --> 00:54:21,534

    didn't. That was a hard process for me to learn to become more and more

    673

    00:54:21,652 --> 00:54:28,594

    independent and on some level, I mean independent of I think with this

    674

    00:54:28,632 --> 00:54:34,434

    friction of not succeeding, which I had a long time in my life, really, as

    675

    00:54:34,472 --> 00:54:34,986

    an artist.

    676

    00:54:35,038 --> 00:54:37,240

    I've had a long time not seen.

    677

    00:54:39,050 --> 00:54:47,206

    And I think this was necessary for me as an artist to really develop in the

    678

    00:54:47,228 --> 00:54:49,494

    way I needed to have my own language.

    679

    00:54:49,622 --> 00:54:55,702

    I would say that I can access my language relatively easily.

    680

    00:54:55,766 --> 00:54:59,210

    I get sometimes quibbles like everyone else as well.

    681

    00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:07,440

    But there was a kind of I mean, when we met, this was a strange I mean,

    682

    00:55:07,970 --> 00:55:12,606

    basically to work with a gallery was something I I really wanted, but it

    683

    00:55:12,628 --> 00:55:13,722

    didn't come up.

    684

    00:55:13,876 --> 00:55:18,770

    Once I had a colleague who had a galleries and it was a very bad experience

    685

    00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:25,438

    and I was a bit careful from then and I had also funny encounters with

    686

    00:55:25,464 --> 00:55:26,230

    galleries.

    687

    00:55:29,690 --> 00:55:37,350

    I participated with other people in research projects and also in shows

    688

    00:55:37,420 --> 00:55:41,670

    where we had to put some money in, sometimes even good shows, really good

    689

    00:55:41,740 --> 00:55:43,082

    funds with catalog and everything.

    690

    00:55:43,136 --> 00:55:44,506

    But we had to pay for it.

    691

    00:55:44,608 --> 00:55:48,682

    And we took each time the risk or I took the risk saying I will sell

    692

    00:55:48,736 --> 00:55:53,374

    something. And sometimes I did and it gets me out there and somebody will

    693

    00:55:53,412 --> 00:55:54,830

    see me and blah, blah.

    694

    00:55:55,490 --> 00:55:56,782

    So I did this.

    695

    00:55:56,916 --> 00:56:07,186

    And at some point, and this was 21, I'd organized a wonderful solo show for

    696

    00:56:07,208 --> 00:56:10,750

    myself where I didn't have to paint, was in an old bunker.

    697

    00:56:10,910 --> 00:56:14,734

    Yes, the gray walls were fantastic.

    698

    00:56:14,782 --> 00:56:19,686

    I mean, this gray concrete for my kind of work, which is very colorful and

    699

    00:56:19,868 --> 00:56:21,960

    needs neutral background always.

    700

    00:56:22,410 --> 00:56:23,586

    That was ideal.

    701

    00:56:23,618 --> 00:56:26,070

    And I could show all really big work.

    702

    00:56:26,220 --> 00:56:27,894

    So I was very happy with this.

    703

    00:56:27,932 --> 00:56:30,906

    But internally I said, this is the last show I do.

    704

    00:56:31,088 --> 00:56:32,538

    I've got enough of it.

    705

    00:56:32,624 --> 00:56:35,530

    I'm tired from having to put all this energy.

    706

    00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,340

    And then we had the contact suddenly, and then we met

    707

    00:56:42,530 --> 00:56:46,094

    in the moment when I say, okay, I had it, something else comes up.

    708

    00:56:46,132 --> 00:56:48,720

    I found this really amazing.

    709

    00:56:49,090 --> 00:56:54,670

    Yeah, it is amazing to let go, to have something new coming up.

    710

    00:56:54,740 --> 00:56:57,860

    And I think this is all just talk, talk.

    711

    00:56:59,910 --> 00:57:01,986

    But then I didn't think about letting go.

    712

    00:57:02,008 --> 00:57:03,746

    I just thought, I've got enough of it.

    713

    00:57:03,768 --> 00:57:08,614

    I was really angry at the situation of having to pay into and people come

    714

    00:57:08,652 --> 00:57:09,942

    always, of course, for free.

    715

    00:57:09,996 --> 00:57:14,102

    I mean, musicians, normally they get even a ticket sale or whatever.

    716

    00:57:14,156 --> 00:57:19,114

    But as an artist, you expect it to be glad to be able to show something at

    717

    00:57:19,152 --> 00:57:22,346

    all. And I find is wrong.

    718

    00:57:22,448 --> 00:57:26,780

    I find the institution, how artists are treated in society is not right.

    719

    00:57:27,870 --> 00:57:28,860

    I agree.

    720

    00:57:29,630 --> 00:57:34,366

    In Holland, for example, artists have got a kind of income because they work

    721

    00:57:34,468 --> 00:57:38,842

    on some subjects that are of a societal nature.

    722

    00:57:38,906 --> 00:57:43,970

    Which is true, isn't it? This is how I did this.

    723

    00:57:44,040 --> 00:57:45,490

    But it was a risk.

    724

    00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:52,626

    But for example, to close the chapter of working as a psychotherapist was

    725

    00:57:52,808 --> 00:57:54,162

    very good for me.

    726

    00:57:54,296 --> 00:57:59,720

    And I hope I have done it well the 14 years I worked with people

    727

    00:58:02,890 --> 00:58:04,918

    and to engage with people.

    728

    00:58:05,004 --> 00:58:09,000

    And this has been always very close to me.

    729

    00:58:09,930 --> 00:58:15,686

    I like to have a discussion about this was the reason why I thought it's

    730

    00:58:15,718 --> 00:58:18,940

    also okay to have an interview like today.

    731

    00:58:21,470 --> 00:58:25,454

    I don't do this only for me and nobody is allowed to see this.

    732

    00:58:25,572 --> 00:58:27,278

    It is a communication, I think.

    733

    00:58:27,364 --> 00:58:28,000

    Yes.

    734

    00:58:32,210 --> 00:58:36,100

    I'm really glad that that door did not close and that we met.

    735

    00:58:36,790 --> 00:58:39,858

    But I think it's really interesting for other artists to hear because I

    736

    00:58:39,864 --> 00:58:44,770

    think that it's hard being an artist.

    737

    00:58:45,690 --> 00:58:47,442

    My background was a dancer.

    738

    00:58:47,506 --> 00:58:53,334

    And you put all of these hours into rehearsal and getting your body to be

    739

    00:58:53,372 --> 00:59:00,474

    this major machine that has this incredible muscle memory and can perform

    740

    00:59:00,592 --> 00:59:02,810

    and work and never take a break.

    741

    00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:07,866

    And in fact, taking a break isn't great for the practice of it.

    742

    00:59:07,888 --> 00:59:10,990

    And then you finally have these performances.

    743

    00:59:11,490 --> 00:59:17,774

    And my experience was dancers don't really get paid much for performing, if

    744

    00:59:17,812 --> 00:59:18,640

    at all.

    745

    00:59:20,130 --> 00:59:23,202

    And there are a lot of people who have to self produce, like you said.

    746

    00:59:23,336 --> 00:59:28,370

    And so it was very disheartening for me as a performing artist.

    747

    00:59:29,430 --> 00:59:36,742

    And I think a lot of artists, on one hand, they want to take the leap, but

    748

    00:59:36,796 --> 00:59:42,374

    on the other hand, they always need to have some sort of something

    749

    00:59:42,492 --> 00:59:46,226

    generating income if they're not always selling.

    750

    00:59:46,258 --> 00:59:48,860

    And artists, even the best selling artists, don't always sell.

    751

    00:59:51,230 --> 00:59:59,626

    I was quite lucky in that regard, but I wanted to have my income through my

    752

    00:59:59,648 --> 01:00:00,650

    art as well.

    753

    01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:06,046

    And when you say the doors closed, I didn't want to stop painting, but I

    754

    01:00:06,068 --> 01:00:12,138

    thought I do just for myself and leave it and they can sort it out when I'm

    755

    01:00:12,154 --> 01:00:12,702

    gone then.

    756

    01:00:12,756 --> 01:00:14,240

    So something like this,

    757

    01:00:17,910 --> 01:00:23,540

    but often opens up a path for people to do it.

    758

    01:00:24,790 --> 01:00:27,446

    Yeah, that's true.

    759

    01:00:27,548 --> 01:00:33,286

    I think sometimes you have to take that leap to open up that path, like you

    760

    01:00:33,308 --> 01:00:36,918

    said, and you never know what's going to happen.

    761

    01:00:37,004 --> 01:00:41,500

    But I think the most important thing what I've observed with artists and

    762

    01:00:41,870 --> 01:00:48,618

    with dancers, with painters, with all types of different artists over my

    763

    01:00:48,784 --> 01:00:55,854

    years, I've noticed that the people who really stay focused and keep the

    764

    01:00:55,892 --> 01:01:02,094

    practice going keep the work going, even if it's just for themselves and not

    765

    01:01:02,132 --> 01:01:06,466

    putting it out there all the time, but the practice of doing it every day or

    766

    01:01:06,568 --> 01:01:14,130

    as often as they need to, and just never giving up and staying focused and

    767

    01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:15,338

    being consistent.

    768

    01:01:15,454 --> 01:01:22,114

    That is what seems to really drive the most successful artists.

    769

    01:01:22,162 --> 01:01:25,334

    Even if it takes some long period of time.

    770

    01:01:25,532 --> 01:01:32,214

    I think in my development, during the development, I felt it was distressing

    771

    01:01:32,262 --> 01:01:39,866

    to me that I thought you should paint, like more like it's done today and do

    772

    01:01:39,888 --> 01:01:42,350

    it like so and so and like so and so.

    773

    01:01:42,500 --> 01:01:49,518

    And in me, there is something that absolutely says no, so I have to do it in

    774

    01:01:49,604 --> 01:01:55,300

    this particular way, which I have described earlier on.

    775

    01:01:59,350 --> 01:02:06,006

    In hindsight, I think this helped me really not to cater for the side guys,

    776

    01:02:06,108 --> 01:02:09,800

    in a way, or not try to cater for the side guys,

    777

    01:02:13,290 --> 01:02:17,110

    or to do something that is not really felt.

    778

    01:02:17,930 --> 01:02:21,066

    But for me, that was really important, that I need to feel these things and

    779

    01:02:21,088 --> 01:02:26,794

    that it has got something I don't know how to say it, but it is something

    780

    01:02:26,832 --> 01:02:30,022

    that needs to be genuine, maybe something like that.

    781

    01:02:30,176 --> 01:02:38,160

    Yeah, it has to come from an authentic place, right? Yeah, difficult,

    782

    01:02:38,690 --> 01:02:45,294

    authentic, we never know when is what's authentic, but yeah, lots of

    783

    01:02:45,332 --> 01:02:47,040

    disturbance around as well.

    784

    01:02:48,550 --> 01:02:50,020

    But it was for me.

    785

    01:02:50,470 --> 01:02:55,606

    Sometimes I thought, oh, you're really stupid that you don't do something

    786

    01:02:55,708 --> 01:03:02,946

    lighter and just to get a few things off the staple and so on, it didn't

    787

    01:03:02,978 --> 01:03:07,538

    work. So in hindsight, it's just how I am.

    788

    01:03:07,724 --> 01:03:13,994

    Yeah. I think it's interesting because your work has been collected by

    789

    01:03:14,192 --> 01:03:21,546

    institutions, private collectors and even via interior designers who specify

    790

    01:03:21,738 --> 01:03:27,706

    your work for their clients, which is a really good sign of wide appeal.

    791

    01:03:27,818 --> 01:03:38,100

    But also is that kind of approachability or kind of placement? I think

    792

    01:03:38,950 --> 01:03:44,450

    because it can be so emotional.

    793

    01:03:45,610 --> 01:03:48,246

    You mean my work? Yes, your work.

    794

    01:03:48,348 --> 01:03:55,000

    It can be so emotional that I think it's great that it could even be

    795

    01:03:56,170 --> 01:04:00,566

    accessed by people who are placing work for other people, like an interior

    796

    01:04:00,598 --> 01:04:02,220

    designer or something like that.

    797

    01:04:03,070 --> 01:04:07,930

    How does that make you feel with how you want to be? I have got, for years,

    798

    01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:15,262

    one collector who has got paintings that were very difficult to look at, and

    799

    01:04:15,316 --> 01:04:16,318

    she loved them.

    800

    01:04:16,404 --> 01:04:17,866

    And I thought, how weird.

    801

    01:04:17,898 --> 01:04:19,754

    That something that I felt.

    802

    01:04:19,802 --> 01:04:24,114

    Can I show that? I mean, each time when, for example, The Black Sun, I

    803

    01:04:24,152 --> 01:04:25,694

    thought, I can't show that painting.

    804

    01:04:25,742 --> 01:04:29,330

    And then you kind of said, oh, I love this painting.

    805

    01:04:29,670 --> 01:04:35,374

    Okay. Obviously, I'm sometimes not aware of that.

    806

    01:04:35,512 --> 01:04:43,400

    People want actually to see something that has got depth, severity, almost

    807

    01:04:44,890 --> 01:04:46,134

    sorry, I didn't catch that.

    808

    01:04:46,172 --> 01:04:49,580

    Almost like a severity or a darkness to it.

    809

    01:04:50,030 --> 01:04:55,420

    Yeah. I try always to get something in that makes it balances it a bit out.

    810

    01:04:57,870 --> 01:05:04,634

    It did encourage me, actually, a lot also, when I got even from an interior

    811

    01:05:04,682 --> 01:05:06,618

    designer, that kind of endorsement.

    812

    01:05:06,714 --> 01:05:12,190

    So I thought, okay, I know I haven't done this just in order to have four

    813

    01:05:12,260 --> 01:05:19,874

    squares together also and look very pretty on a wall, but also this can look

    814

    01:05:19,912 --> 01:05:20,354

    very good.

    815

    01:05:20,392 --> 01:05:28,614

    So I don't want to rewrite anything here, but for me, it was a kind of it

    816

    01:05:28,652 --> 01:05:29,720

    surprised me,

    817

    01:05:33,690 --> 01:05:35,862

    and I think we touched on this.

    818

    01:05:35,996 --> 01:05:37,190

    Sorry, go ahead.

    819

    01:05:37,340 --> 01:05:45,100

    I said, but then not because I try to bring beauty in my work as well.

    820

    01:05:46,830 --> 01:05:49,674

    Might be what is recognized as well.

    821

    01:05:49,872 --> 01:05:56,270

    I think something that has got some errors in as well.

    822

    01:05:56,420 --> 01:05:59,774

    Yeah. I find your work very beautiful.

    823

    01:05:59,892 --> 01:06:06,866

    I think there is a sweeping I keep on coming back to the movement, but some

    824

    01:06:06,888 --> 01:06:11,010

    of the sweeping motions in your work are just breathtaking.

    825

    01:06:11,350 --> 01:06:12,718

    And the palette.

    826

    01:06:12,894 --> 01:06:15,140

    I love the palettes you work with.

    827

    01:06:19,910 --> 01:06:26,406

    I think we touched on this before, and you briefly mentioned it, but if your

    828

    01:06:26,428 --> 01:06:31,114

    artwork could talk, what do you think it would say about you as an artist to

    829

    01:06:31,152 --> 01:06:33,130

    the viewer

    830

    01:06:36,750 --> 01:06:38,460

    or what secrets would you

    831

    01:06:42,130 --> 01:06:43,470

    quite intense.

    832

    01:06:45,250 --> 01:06:46,880

    There's a lot of love.

    833

    01:06:50,850 --> 01:06:56,494

    There's a lot of resilience and quite quirky.

    834

    01:06:56,622 --> 01:06:58,498

    I think this is what I would say.

    835

    01:06:58,664 --> 01:07:01,266

    Yeah. I've never posed myself that question.

    836

    01:07:01,368 --> 01:07:03,860

    Thank you for it was a bit embarrassing, but fine.

    837

    01:07:05,370 --> 01:07:07,480

    Well, we have to get to the good stuff.

    838

    01:07:11,690 --> 01:07:20,506

    Yeah. I feel all of those things and your work, so I think that's a really

    839

    01:07:20,528 --> 01:07:21,340

    good answer.

    840

    01:07:24,670 --> 01:07:33,630

    It really does reflect you have a very genuine, loving presence.

    841

    01:07:34,450 --> 01:07:42,222

    And our few times that we've gotten to really spend time together, I get

    842

    01:07:42,276 --> 01:07:44,020

    that, and I think that comes through.

    843

    01:07:44,550 --> 01:07:45,874

    We do match each other.

    844

    01:07:45,992 --> 01:07:46,660

    Definitely.

    845

    01:07:50,310 --> 01:08:00,630

    Well, is there anything else that you'd like to add before we head out? I'm

    846

    01:08:01,210 --> 01:08:04,870

    really very happy working with you as a gallery.

    847

    01:08:05,770 --> 01:08:07,298

    Thank you for saying that.

    848

    01:08:07,484 --> 01:08:10,380

    Because of you, I feel really understood by you.

    849

    01:08:10,830 --> 01:08:14,380

    And that is not how to say that is not

    850

    01:08:18,990 --> 01:08:21,262

    special. So thank you for that.

    851

    01:08:21,396 --> 01:08:22,382

    Oh, thank you.

    852

    01:08:22,436 --> 01:08:23,326

    Thank you for saying that.

    853

    01:08:23,348 --> 01:08:24,960

    That's really lovely to hear.

    854

    01:08:28,370 --> 01:08:30,640

    I think this is a good team we've got here.

    855

    01:08:32,790 --> 01:08:38,046

    All right, well, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and chat

    856

    01:08:38,078 --> 01:08:38,980

    about your work.

    857

    01:08:40,550 --> 01:08:48,274

    And please anybody listening watching, please check out Marius' exhibition at

    858

    01:08:48,312 --> 01:08:55,826

    jennsingergallery.com/BlackSun, one of the paintings we spoke

    859

    01:08:55,858 --> 01:08:56,680

    about today.

    860

    01:08:57,530 --> 01:09:00,118

    So, yeah, thank you so much, Marius.

    861

    01:09:00,294 --> 01:09:02,426

    Thank you so much for inviting me.

    862

    01:09:02,528 --> 01:09:03,622

    Okay, that's a wrap.

    863

    01:09:03,686 --> 01:09:08,826

    Thank you so much for joining me today for this preseason episode of The

    864

    01:09:08,848 --> 01:09:09,830

    Gallery Date.

    865

    01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:13,294

    I hope you enjoyed the interview with Marius, and I hope you'll check out

    866

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    his exhibition.

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    You could do a virtual walkthrough of the full show it's on

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    jennsingergallery.com/BlackSun.

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    And please send an email to info@jennsingergallery.com and leave your

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    feedback, and I'd love to hear from you.

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    All right, hope to see you soon.

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